Curse

shoyon456 · Jan 26, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

This may in part be a rant, so please excuse me if I wander off...

Now, I dont know what everyone else is thinking, but ecto, which has always been a staple, is basically not worth farming anymore. I did at least 5 uw smite runs today which yielded 1-2 ecto each, less than 400 gold each average, and the usual junk such as remains, white weapons, etc...

In my opinion, these things point to one thing: GW's economy is in the dumps, and has been for some time now. Instead of trying to keep up with players and nerf effecient smite solo builds like in the past, they have simply "given in" and instead relegated drops down throughout the game.

I know GW2 is a long ways away, and I will probably be past the whole "guildwars phase" when I see how much anet has diverted from their gw1 ideals in it, but I just have one very serious question to pose to those who will endure with guildwars...

Do you think anet will have REAL ECONOMISTS working on guildwars2?

It's a serious question, considering the way the gw1 market/economy is so split between lower and upper class due to uber rare minis that anet releases to only a select few who just have to get "lucky" I guess.

If they dont have some serious economic plans for the entire future of guildwars2, in my opinion it the market will go the same way as gw1, no middle class like some 3rd world country.

Songbringer · Jan 26, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

LIKE AMERICA!!!! sorry I had to throw in a hate towards american economy since it is so bad right now. I am american so please don't flame me out...it was a joke. HEHE HAHA kinda thing ^_^.

As for the post. I hope the gw2 econemy is more stable then gw1. your right the few lucky players who get the polar bear mini(just example) from that wintersday chest thing are the uper class. While rest are stuck with only some stacks of ectos sitting around waiting for the ecto price to go back to 12k or so

TaCktiX · Jan 26, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

The price of ectos will never go back up. Just get crap-tons of FoW armor for all your characters.

As for the suggestion, I agree that there should be some economic consultation. Right now aside from the definite money sinks of armor, crafted weapons, and merchant-able items, there is nothing.

With the luck drops and the large amount of funds in the hands of a few, we end up with an oligopoly instead of a capitalist competition trading system. That's stupid and ridiculous, because you have overpriced new skin weapons, and underpriced "has-been" skin weapons. You get the new skin weapon in a good stat, you are SET. If you don't, bummer, you're just stuck.

So either add more near-mandatory money sinks into GW2, or have a definite way to remove or depreciate funds out in the market. Too many uber-rich, too many uber-poor, nobody in between.

Antheus · Jan 26, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

While rest are stuck with only some stacks of ectos

If you have a stack/stacks of ectos, you're middle class.

Low class is 1 character, zero items, collector armor/weapons.

High class is more than 1 FoW armor.

Quote:

Too many uber-rich, too many uber-poor, nobody in between

Old saying has it best: "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Let's take WoW. Will you say that there it's too hard to too much gold?

Are the normal players who need 6 months to gather 6000 (or whatever) gold for their epic mount uber-poor? Nope - they are upper middle class.

Quote:

I did at least 5 uw smite runs today which yielded 1-2 ecto each

First: UW ecto farming has been long considered not worth it. Same as troll cave, gryphons, etc. It's not Anet's fault you continue to farm there.

Second: Minis make for some quick cash. But that's not how people get rich. The richest people in GW are those that are first to everything. They farmed UW on the first day GW launched. They made insane fortunes. On second week, they moved to riverside. And so on....

Why weren't you doing Slavers when GW:EN came out? Or the HoS run. Or cathedran runs (I hear this one is still very good).

In GW, making money is easy. Becoming uber rich however is just a matter of being there first.

There are flukes. But that's not where richest people come from. And that is the same with every game.

placebo overdose · Jan 26, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

richest are the people who know how to play the market and already have a lot to start with

Operative 14 · Jan 26, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

shoyon456, I'll take your 5-10 ectos if you don't want them.

Anyhoo-

I think it would be worthwhile for them to get a consultant, if nothing else, for the economy. I'd have to say that's probably one of the most important aspects of game once you have been playing for a while.

The Meth · Jan 26, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

The terms 'Lower class' and 'High class' really don't apply to guild wars. The way guild wars is set up the lower class has basically no disadvantage compared to the higher class. The only way to 'fix' the economy would be to actually give the higher class an advantage because of their gold, so that being rich actually had meaningful value. The fact is that any mmo economy is pretty screwed up in the first place, you have a limitless supply (monsters) and a fixed demand (playerbase). Unless you plan to 'tax' players some how through something like repairing damaged weaponry there is virtually no way to make the economy balanced.

Will The Heretic · Jan 26, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

I'm not sure if anyone has thought about this but Temple Of Balthazar International Dist 1 is where all the fow/chaos glove wearing millionares are. This also seems to be the place where you pick up platinum ordered from sites that use bots to farm their gold on multiple accounts...

I have also noticed hundreds of different bots spamming thier sites and have had myself, my entire guild and everyone i know report them, with NO results at all. I even made a joke that Arenanet was taking payment from the botters to let them spam (starting to be less of a joke to me these days).

IMHO, if bots advertising making 2 million gold with like 50.00 in 5 minutes were removed, the economy might be a bit better.

oh, and yay first post 8D!

Kanyatta · Jan 26, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will The Heretic

I even made a joke that Arenanet was taking payment from the botters to let them spam (starting to be less of a joke to me these days).

I knew it wasn't a joke the first time I heard it 2 years ago, when I saw 100-150 bots in Elona's Reach ID1. There's always stuff going on in the inner workings of Anet that the community will never know about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will The Heretic

IMHO, if bots advertising making 2 million gold with like 50.00 in 5 minutes were removed, the economy might be a bit better.

Pretty much everyone recognizes that, and it would be so easy for Anet to do, that's why your other statement just doesn't seem like a joke.

Will The Heretic · Jan 26, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Well at least someone agrees there...most people have been afraid to say it because of the increasingly wicked ban stick :P

Kanyatta · Jan 26, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will The Heretic

Well at least someone agrees there...most people have been afraid to say it because of the increasingly wicked ban stick :P

As long as there are conspiracies out there, I will make it my duty to have an opinion on them!!!

shoyon456 · Jan 26, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

so, to get back on topic...

Economy in GW2 should:

Be protected against botters/gold selling with a very modern system

be at least in part setup by REAL economists who have some know-how about mmo economics aswell

Be supported and regulated through solid "staples" as it were

the_jos · Jan 26, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Do you have any insight in RL economy?
Consider this: a large part of the world population is poor.
And not poor as in "do I have enough money to keep my car", but as in "do I have food tomorrow".
And the only reason the rich are helping is when they have some form of advantage.

There are some improvements that can be made in an online economy, for example better trading with a store or auction, but those will only help up to a certain point.
The main thing an online economy needs is protection against massive inflation. And trade to be as transparent as possible.
Besides that, if the community decides to make a shadow currency, like 'ecto, they create their own risk. Shadow currencies are priced by the market and are influenced by supply and demand and the future expectations of the market.
The official game currency is influenced by the amount of gold entering and exiting the economy.
The moment the online economy needs regulation, other than inflation control, something else is wrong.
And inflation control is hard, part of the current problems on the US mortgage market are caused by failing to control inflation in the past.

Dronte · Jan 26, 2008, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

If you have a stack/stacks of ectos, you're middle class.

Low class is 1 character, zero items, collector armor/weapons.

High class is more than 1 FoW armor.

I cant understand your logic tbh. Stack/stacks of ectos are more likely high class.
Btw, I bought my warrior fow when ectos were 11-12k. So its not the same as my necro's fow which I bought when ectos were 5,5k. There are huge differences between fow armor and fow armor. So its not a good point.
And lets see, someone has 2 fow armors, thats like ~250 ectos, and you count it richer than that guy who has stack/stacks of ectos?
Low class is items/ectos/money/armor worth <200k imo.
Middle class ~1 FoW armor, some rare stuff, all in all worth ~750-1000k.
High class is over that, more likely stuff >1500k

Mangione · Jan 26, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Do you think anet will have REAL ECONOMISTS working on guildwars2?

It's a serious question, considering the way the gw1 market/economy [...]

If they dont have some serious economic plans for the entire future of guildwars2, in my opinion it the market will go the same way as gw1, no middle class like some 3rd world country.

O M G
Awful perspective!

Come on guys... Aren't you taking this "ingame economy" too seriously?
Real economists following the ingame market? Please...

tankity tank · Jan 26, 2008, 12:26 PM // 12:26

There's no liquidity because there's no convenient way to sell, fix that and you've fixed a lot of other issues.

jackie · Jan 26, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Well to be totally honest, I hope economy in GW2 won't focus just on rare drops because farming is the fastest way to ruin economy.

Instead I would love to see playerbased crafting, for example one could choose to be an armorsmith/crafter of bows/miner/etc. and there would be restrictions to how to gather and make different kind of ingredients/materials needed for crafting. In addition to crafting there would be rare loot of course to keep the killing spree mildly entertaining.

Integrate economy & players together, make economy & phat loot more than just vanity, then we could start speaking of more stable economy.

MithranArkanere · Jan 26, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

But in GW there is the base that 'one can bake almost anything'.

So instead of choosing, they could be 'part-time' jobs.
You could change your 'Master Crafter', and even learn recipes to craft things in many NPCs around the world.

So, you want to make metal armor, you become aprentice of a Master ArmorSmith, you want to make weapons, you quit the job and go learn from a Master Blacksmith. You could also lear the job and become master yourself, and being able to make things for the professions you have already mastered, without having to go change jobs.

'Anyone can learn anything' I mean.

Antheus · Jan 26, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

I cant understand your logic tbh. Stack/stacks of ectos are more likely high class.
Btw, I bought my warrior fow when ectos were 11-12k. So its not the same as my necro's fow which I bought when ectos were 5,5k. There are huge differences between fow armor and fow armor. So its not a good point.
And lets see, someone has 2 fow armors, thats like ~250 ectos, and you count it richer than that guy who has stack/stacks of ectos?
Low class is items/ectos/money/armor worth <200k imo.
Middle class ~1 FoW armor, some rare stuff, all in all worth ~750-1000k.
High class is over that, more likely stuff >1500k

Look....

Let's define the criteria about who's rich and who isn't by setting precise amounts in gold. Having 1000k puts you into upper lower middle class II. Or something.

People are so obsessed with this level mind-set they want everything done by levels.

It's not about the sum of money you have. Having 100 or 101 ectos is irrelevant. Rare items are rare because they are rare and rare items are rare. That's the point. It's not about the amount of money they are worth.

I don't have FoW, but I have enough resources stored for two sets. By the time I got that together, I realized that I don't really care about flashy stuff.

But with this amount of money, I can buy *anything* in game. Any armor (FoW included), and rune, any skill, get any run, and craft any weapon. As such, by definition, I'm as rich as one can get.

The rare item market isn't about showing off your money. It's about rare items alone. And that's something people simply don't understand. You cannot have rare items accessible. And accessible items cannot be expensive.

All this critique about economy is simply about "I grinded my money for 1 year, I deserve a mini panda, economy needs to be nerfed". No - there are 10 Pandas, nobody deserves them, nobody earns them. If you want them, they are out there. Get them. They aren't part of the game, they aren't a reward, they are a token in trading game that some people play, but has nothing to do with GW.

MithranArkanere · Jan 27, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Well. Problem comes when those 10 pandas are dedicated or destroyed.

Then the economy needs another 10 pandas injected into the market.

There should never be more than a limited ammount of the really rare items, but never banish to the point of remaining just one, or it would be as expensive as the blood of 500 beautiful virgins.

So. I think that GW should keep track of the real rare items (those with limited adquisition) so no more are added when there are enoug, and more are added when there are not.